Budget thrusters

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  • #11037

      After having looked at numerous options; twin diesel engines, twin hydraulic screws, steerable sillette leg, electric propulsion, bow thrusters etc. I think I finally found a budget solution for the docking and windage woes.
      It’s not the prettiest solution, as there will be visible motor mounts, but it can be installed without major surgery and amateur DC electrical knowledge. They can be installed off the stern but my steering configuration didn’t allow for this.
      Two, 55lb (0.8HP), trolling motors with the controls mounted at the helm. These can be purchased relatively cheaply because they are mass produced. Total cost was $1400 for all parts which is pretty damn good considering two vetus 55lb thrusters will set you back $3750 before parts and installation, and we all know how much twin screws cost, weather it’s hydraulic or twin diesels, we are looking at well over $10K. Once I found all the parts, installation and testing took three days.

      Results (in calm):
      Speed both full forward 1.5 knots (might have picked up a bit more speed but I was short on space. Reached this speed in two boat lengths about 5 seconds.)
      90 turn done in 14 seconds (without using rudders or main engine)
      Total cost $1550

      Initial test was disappointing, the amperage draw is only 84 and is, according to the manufacturer meant to run at 100, 50 amps each, which is 0.67HP each, as opposed to the published 0.8hp. According to prop calculations 100amps should push her at 2.9 knots and 84 amps at 2.7 knots, so 1.5 is disappointing. Which leads me to believe these, stock, wheedles props aren’t as efficient as they could be. According to the manufacturer they are designed for around 4 knots. I have ordered some larger 3 blade props which claim additional power. I’ll post an update when they arrive.
      Turning ability however is reasonably good in calm. I tested this without the use of the rudder or outboard and was able to navigate the tight marina single handed with ease. She did turn on her axis. I noticed afterward I forgot to pull the main prop out the water but I doubt this slowed it down much.

      Location of mounts
      I’ve mounted the motors off the gunwale in the center, which is probably not the best place for this. As an afterthought if the motors could be mounted so that, when deployed, they are positioned where the twin screws would be i.e. in front of the rudders. This would give the benefit of rudder wash and I assume better steering ability. With these mounted on the bow or stern pointed perpendicular to the waterline, with the main engine running, I think you could swing an aggressive turn.

      #11747

        Installation & photos
        1. Pontoon mounts, Cut some starboard ½” and ¼” strips. One ¼” overlapping the gunwale. Longer bolts where needed. Still need to drill out and epoxy the cored deck.
        [img]http://lh3.ggpht.com/ryanonthebeach/SKVCChUvupI/AAAAAAAAA0s/yOvKHopJcaA/pontoon%20bracket%20and%20plug.jpg?imgmax=640[/img]
        2. Dismantle the head and cut the pot (speed control) wires. Unplug the motor wires.
        [img]http://lh6.ggpht.com/ryanonthebeach/SKVCBo-O7QI/AAAAAAAAA0k/vSgjIdx2wQo/pot%20cut.jpg?imgmax=720[/img]
        3. Cut the original shafts off and chiseled out the remaining carbon fiber shaft. Painstaking work because you need to take care not to damage the threads or wires. Was advised by the manufacturer to heat up the casing to loosen the locktight and they would screw out but the carbon shaft simply caught alight.
        [img]http://lh6.ggpht.com/ryanonthebeach/SKVCMtJea5I/AAAAAAAAA1E/XbgZQRL4B_E/IMG00026.jpg?imgmax=512[/img]
        4. Extend the wire using 8AWG wire cause you have a longer shaft and need to reach the plug socket. Drilled two 1 1/8” holes to install the plugs.
        5. Mount each controller in line with the batteries and where the motor plug is to be placed. This is to keep the wire run as short as possible and consequently lessen the voltage drop or size of wire needed.
        6. Install big 150A main fuse and two 60A fuses next to each controller.
        [img]http://lh4.ggpht.com/ryanonthebeach/SKVCEitYGhI/AAAAAAAAA00/G8XCYkMdEh4/Controller%20and%20fuse.jpg?imgmax=400[/img]
        7. Controller wires per controller run to helm soldered where the pot wires where cut on both the controller and pot.
        8. Mount the speed controls in original casings and use old shafts as mounting poles.
        [img]http://lh5.ggpht.com/ryanonthebeach/SKck1WisxoI/AAAAAAAAA18/aj1jgr3kruU/IMG00027.jpg?imgmax=512[/img]

        #11748

          Electric notes
          Crossing the bridge, the bigger the wire the better, motor performance is dependent on the voltage supplied. Initially I didn’t have large enough wire which cut the performance by 40% upgrading the wire size across the bridge kicked it up to around 84%. I used 4AWG. The batteries will need to handle this. I chose to use the existing house bank. I have 2 X 6v Trojan T125’s (235AH total) considering the Peukert factor this will give me 30 min to 50% DOD. This is more than enough time for docking/anchoring, for occasional assistance with tacking and use as an electric dagger board.

          Parts list & Cost
          2 x 60A fuses
          1 x 150A fuse
          2 x 60” replacement trolling motor shafts
          2 x Pontoon mounts
          1 x ¼” sheet of starboard
          1 x ½ in sheet of starboard
          2 x 55lb maxim minn kota trolling motors (digital version is more efficient at lower speeds)
          10’ 4AWG marine grade wire (AWG = American wire gauge) to cross the bridge.
          12’ 6AWG
          3’ 8AWG marine grade wire (shaft inner tube is to small for 6AWG.
          Wire terminators, and extensions
          1 1/2’ Longer bolts for pontoon mounts
          Ordered two new props $80 each

          Misc. considerations
          1. The motor manual states that the motor is grounded and that the battery bank used for them should therefore be isolated as it may cause corrosion… I ignored this.
          2. Cutting up the motor obviously voids any warrantee.
          3. The maxim motors are not marine grade. For this reason I made them stowable, but they won’t last forever. The don’t have zincs and the internal wire is not tinned copper. That said you can pick them up on ebay for a reasonable price.

          #11749

            Forget the Controllers?

            Bypassing the controller gives around 4% more juice to the motor, so the controller, as expected, is somewhere around 96% efficient at max speed. Eliminating the controller pushes the total on my setup to 95% of the rated power (47.5 of the rated 50 amps) i.e. 570 watts or 0.764HP.
            If the motor/s are only to be used as thrusters it may well be a better option to simply install a three way contactor and three way switch, the ones used for controlling a windlass.
            The only reasons I can fathom for using the controller is, if you would use this for trolling and/or as an electric dagger board.
            Using contactors would definitely simplify the installation, fiddling with those tiny controller wires was painstaking work. This will also leave a much neater setup with only two small switches at the helm.
            The downside is the contactors are around 150USD a pop.

            #11750

              Very interesting.
              It can put photographies of the motors?
              Warm greetings.

              #11751

                Hi Ryan
                I know you may hate me for this, but good on you for trying.
                New, to me website and I am going to try them.
                Also 55 lb thust and 12 volts.
                http://www.floveroutboard.co.uk/outboards.html

                Best regards

                Steve

                #11752

                  Steve

                  They look good, same trust as the Minn Kotas, the shaft is a little short however but I guess that would depend on where you mount them. The props are bigger which is good.
                  One not this is the old set speed controller which is quite a bit more inefficient than the digital infinitely variable versions. If you are only going to use them at full power I don't think this matters to much although I would check that reverse give full power as there are only three reverse speeds as opposed to five forward.

                  Good luck, let me know how this works out for you.

                  #11753

                    Hi Ryan
                    Got a quote. Two of the 55lb salt water units, shipped from UK to Mallorca, total cost 500 Pounds. Not to bad when you look at the Torqeedo. Ok I know they are not as powerfull but they will only be used as thrusters .

                    A few questions if you don't mind. I havent actually seen one of these little motors before but as I am some sort of engineer so should be able to sort them out.

                    I believe you extended the shafts, they are , if Im not mistaken , only to support the motor and propeller housing.
                    As the ones that I am looking at are supposed to be salt water rating I was thiking of building my own shafts using ,maybe aliminium sections and glassed to the original shaft.
                    The mounting will be on the transom, prot and starboard of my bathing platform.
                    I was thinking , initally , of using two of those spring loaded, drop down , outboard brackets. This being so I can lift them out of the water when not in use but easily drop them down when entering a marina. ??
                    As you suggested I would try and remove the speed control and use just two , forward, off,reverse switches mounted at the helm. Just like some of the bow thrusters and normally only run for a few seconds at a time.

                    I will anyway relocate my batteries in the port and stdbd engine bays and that should able me to reduce the main cableing to around 3.5 meters. As, so they say, a 100 amp batterie can support a motor for two hours then one batterie each should have no probelms running in short bursts for about ten mins while I berth.

                    What do you think.
                    It would be some time until I get to fit them anyway as I will have them sent to the boat in Mallorca but not fit them until I get to our final berth in Turkey. Maybe several months away.

                    Best regards

                    Steve

                    #11754

                      Steve

                      That’s a good price for the Salties. I think besides the torqueedo’s folding ability and prop, what you mostly paying for is the LiFePo4 battery. The LiFePo4 batteries are fantastic batteries though and will actually pay for itself in the long, long run, over lead acid, if used regularly.
                      If I did it again I would do just that. Mount them on drop down outboard brackets. If you mount them low enough those shafts might do. If they are off the transom you could turn them sideways which would probably be a more practical solution. Used just to swing her butt about as I don’t think using them like twin screws would be powerful enough in heavier wind.
                      Two 12v 100AH batteries should be ample. Although you’ll not get two hours at full power more like 20min to 50% DOD. But then I doubt you’ll ever need more than 10min for docking anyway.

                      #11755

                        Hi Ryan,

                        many thanks for such detailed info on these budget thrusters. I have a couple of Questions.

                        1.. Is the mounting bracket the same as comes with the motor plus the white mounting strips?
                        2.. What length of shaft did you use – 36″ or 42″?

                        3.. Did you use both motors in tandem i.e both ahead or astern at the same time, or individually?

                        4.. I have removed the tie bar for the steering from above the deck at the stern and moved it lower down outboard of the rudders. This freed updeck space at the rear of the boat, but makes the tie-bar a lot more vunerable to a “Kick up the backside.” Would this make stern mounting more feasible?

                        I am trying to get the UK supplier to supply just the Mounting bracket, shaft and propeller/motor. I was thinking of using on/off foot switches as you use on windlasses to control the movement ahead or astern.
                        You obviously have more experience of this situation than myself and I wonder if I am just talking rubbish and it would just not be feasible.

                        Regards Martin

                        #11756

                          Hey Martin

                          1. No, it’s a different one I ordered separately. Called a pontoon mount. I believe you can buy motors with the pontoon mount as opposed to the transom mount (which requires a vertical transom to clamp to) but I couldn’t find any with the right specifications.
                          2. I ordered separate shafts 60” and removed the original shafts. With a bit of effort see post.
                          3. This sounds good. As long as you have the space for the shaft over the edge of the transom, 3 inches. The dimensions of this mount (in inches) are 6 ½ L X 5 W with the clamp that holds the shaft 3 inches over the side. Those plastic strips are starboard a substitute for plywood.

                          A windlass foot switch will work or even an automotive winch, bear in mind you’ll need two of them, each one will be hooked up to a bi-directional solenoid (electrically controlled high current switch). This is so that the large wires don’t have to run from batteries to switch at the helm and back down to the motors with would require more distance and consequently larger wire and to handle the higher current. The foot switch in this case has small wires running to the solenoid which does the actual switching.
                          So you’ll need two bi-directional switches and two solenoids / contactors. These can be mounted after the 60 amp fuse.
                          These are in fact more efficient than using the original controllers as there is a 4% odd loss in the controllers.
                          Be very aware of the wire size you’re going to need all the way from the battery/s to get to the transom especially the far side, as voltage drop will directly affect motor performance. There is a calculator on this site that I use http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
                          It is in imperial units and American wire gauge however. I try shoot for < 3% voltage drop. The shaft will however only accept 8AWG so there’s not much you can do about that last 7’, 5’ of shaft and 2’ to the plug. Voltage drop in high current 12v systems is a pain much, much better with 24v but then most stuff don’t run on 24v. I’m considering moving mine to the stern, but will have to move my hydraulic steering arm somewhere as it’s in the way.

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